09.02.05
okay, i lied, i have one more thing to say
I have to make one last post about my newest least favorite person: Michael Brown of FEMA.
Who had these things to say about the folks stuck in New Orleans:
I don’t make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans,” he said.
“And to find people still there is just heart-wrenching to me because, you know, the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there.
and this:
When evacuation warnings go out, people should realize it’s for their own good.
Yes, indeed, Mr. Brown. Your heartfelt sympathy is duly noted. The subtext of your comment, (i.e. those fucking poor people are making a headache for me…usually I just sit on my ass and play flash video games on my computer and don’t actually have to do any real ‘work’) is truly astounding.
If you were doing your fucking job Mr. Brown, you’d have made sure there were busses down in New Orleans BEFORE Katrina hit. THEN, perhaps, you’d have a leg to stand on.
As it is, you’re a pathetic little blame throwing loser. And, to think, you’ve nothing better to do than blame the indigent for their lot in life. Yes, indeed, those stupid fucking poor people, didn’t they know there was a hurricane a-comin’? Those morons that didn’t leave the city, indeed.
It’s pretty comfortable to be a white upperclass man and talk about how people should’ve just hopped in their Lexuses and cruised on up to the Smokey Mountains for a month or two at your gated-community vacation home; however, there are some folks without that luxury.
I’ve critiqued Soledad O’Brien before for trying to make a news story about Government unpreparedness where there truly was no story. But, this time, Mr. Brown, Ms. O’Brien, I think, is right on the money with her critique. Mr. Brown, the President can even admit that:
“The results are not enough”
(And yes, that might actually be the first admission that anything has gone less than optimally in the past 5 or so years of the administration.) Mr. Brown, George “I couldn’t admit that I made a mistake or admit a minor judgmental error if I was caught masturbating to a picture of Michael Jackson” W. Bush, has admitted that you fucked up. That’s professional homocide if I’ve ever heard it.
My suggestion: First, the obvious–fire Michael Brown, soon, maybe even tomorrow. Second, hire a survivor of Katrina to do Mr. Brown’s job. Someone who had to take a shit in an overflowing toilet, or had to witness the death of a husband or wife. Someone who chose to break into a convenience store in order to provide their family with enough provisions to survive.
I’d say more, but, friends, I think I’m actually speechless.
Eric W said,
September 2, 2005 at 8:03 pm
Okay - random thoughts about your post and about the entire situation:
- Mr. Brown appears to be a complete idiot
- I disagree with anyone who tries to make this situation into a race or class issue
- Preparedness starts at home. The City of New Orleans should be taking the lead, asking the state for help, which would ask the feds for help. No one in New Orleans has stepped up and taken a lead position. They seem content to sit on their butts and complain about the lack of federal response while their own police and fire fighters are left out in the city without support. THAT pisses me off.
- While a horrible situation, it’s amazing to see the disparity in the reporting down there. Some make it out to be a war zone, others focus on the good things happening.
- As in most tragedies, it’s heartwarming to see the outpouring of love and support from complete strangers. I guess all people don’t suck after all. Hopefully everyone who reads your blog is helping somehow.
- The support from overseas is pretty cool. Even Sri Lanka wants to help. Some people may not think we, as the most wealthy nation in the world, should need the help, and we probably don’t, but it’s nice to see other countries willing to assist the U.S.
- This is just starting. It’s going to be a very, very long time until that region returns to some sense of normalcy.
Streak said,
September 2, 2005 at 8:21 pm
No offense to Eric, but the city did ask for help–at least to ask for federal assistance in planning for something like this. Bush gutted FEMA early in his “presidency” and appointed political hacks to run it. The most recent is Michael Brown.
The city may not have done a good job, but maybe they assumed that Homeland Security (FEMA is now under) could handle evacuations and basic care.
This one is on Bush. He gutted FEMA; cut funding for hurricane preparedness and levy repair; and then watched for several days while everyone was making dire predictions. His response? “No one thought the levvies would burst.” BS. Everyone thought that! I saw guys on the Weather Channel last week who were saying this was going to be bad.
But then again; no one thought there wouldn’t be wmd, no one thought Osama would attack inside the US, no one thought there would be an active insurgency. But no one holds Bush accountable.
Sorry, Brandon. Don’t mean to vent more on your post, but this is exactly what the Bush supporters get. After years of demonizing government they are now watching what *good* government can do. FEMA was the agency that could handle this, and under Clinton, they had a plan ready for just such a hurricane.
I am sure there is blame to spread around at the local level. But our President played golf on Wednesday (we all knew it was going to be bad on Sunday), and today, after surveying the damage, joked about rebuilding Trent Lott’s house. No matter that Lott is not a good example of the horror of this storm.
Pilip said,
September 2, 2005 at 9:32 pm
I disagree with the previous post about FEMA being ready for this during the Clinton administration. Do you really think that the FEMA bureaucrats (who are there from administration to administration) tossed their planning binders out when the Bushies came into office? Hardly. This would have been a screw-up of royal proportions had ANYBODY been in office.
That’s not to say this administration hasn’t handled this incredibly poorly. It has. And Michael D. Brown should be indicted by the New Orleans DA and brought to trial.
Pilip www.horilka.com
Streak said,
September 3, 2005 at 12:36 am
Hey Philip, James Witt was hired to run FEMA because he had training in emergency management. He was hired because Andrew (or whatever the big hurricane at the end of the HW Bush admin) showed how bad our planning was. It did improve under Clinton. He wasn’t “there from administration from administration” and in fact, the improvement of FEMA under Clinton may be one of the untold successes of that administration. Bush gutted it because it was approaching some kind of “entitlement program.”
The facts are fairly simple: FEMA worked. In 2001 Bush gutted it. After 9-11 it was moved under Homeland Security. The aforementioned Brown that you think should be indicted was appointed because (not as Witt was because of expertise) he was a crony of Bush’s.
So, you assertion that it would have been a screwup under Clinton is just that–an assertion. Witt had a plan in place to deal with this very forseeable emergency. Bush ignored (or his people–he was playing golf, I am sure) several reports that said not only was this level of hurrican damage likely, but that the existing levees and pumping systems were ill-equipped to handle this.
I will restate. This is on Bush. And the fact that his administration is now blaming the dead for the high death rate is proof of how incompetent this administration is.
the unintentional blogger said,
September 3, 2005 at 1:51 am
What about the hundreds of busses that were in the school districts parking lots around the town? Why did the mayor not put those to use? I’m willing to concede that a number of people could have done things better, but nobody really forsaw devastation of this magnitude. To put it all at the feet of Bush is disingenuous at best and downright sickening partisanship at worst.
Bad Alice said,
September 3, 2005 at 11:20 am
I remember going to sleep comforted by news reports that New Orleans seemed to have escaped the worst. I wonder how many people there were lulled by the same messages only to wake up to a nightmare. Those who chose to stay must have felt confirmed in their choice until the levees broke.
When I lived out West there were often evactuations for forest fires. Forced evactuation meant just that–the police and fire personnel patrolled the neighborhoods and took anyone away who thought they would take a chance. It communicated the true urgency of the situation and took care of the problem of transport. There’s no excuse for leaving your frailest and must vulnerable citizens to fend for themselves.
It’s all very well to blame Bush–I’m inclined to blame him for just about everything–but it’s my understanding that bad decisions have been made about reinforcing the levees since the 1960s. It does seem that the problems that overcame New Orleans are the result of a long long period of indifference.
rick said,
September 3, 2005 at 11:42 am
Brandon,
I suggest that you take a class on expressing yourself so that you would be better able to tell us how you REALLY feel.
That was good.
Thanks for bringing it!
Public Theologian said,
September 3, 2005 at 12:18 pm
Brandon–
Josh Marshall over at Talking Points Memo has a post on the Boston Globe’s piece today which says that Mike Brown’s previous job, from which he was fired, was to run horse shows.
Streak said,
September 3, 2005 at 1:25 pm
Alice, I will concede that the problems go well beyond this administration. I also concede that I am extremely hard on Bush and perhaps too partisan (as ub asserts).
My frustration is long standing and the sense that no conservative has dared to hold Bush responsible when he has made errors. In fact, they have allowed him to never even acknowledge any personal errors. I am tired of that, and I find that as sickening as UB finds my partisanship.
Bad Alice said,
September 3, 2005 at 3:58 pm
Streak,
Well, I don’t have much problem with you being hard on Bush. I wonder how much he acts under his own volition. Did someone have to come along and say, Ah, Mr. President, you might want to leave your vacation and have a look see at New Orleans? I think of that blank look when he got news of 9/11 while reading to school children. I find living under this administration rather surreal.
There’s a good piece on Bush and the levees on www.factcheck.org. Factcheck is a non-partisan organization (at least that’s its claim and reputation), and they’re a great place to go for checking out claims, particularly around election time.
Cheers.
Benjamin said,
September 3, 2005 at 4:31 pm
Well, at least we can sleep confident in the knowldege that if this had been something that had caught us unawares, like say, a dirty bomb, instead of something that was reported in the news for a week prior, Homeland Security is prepared to jump into action - and hold a press conference.
Republicans have been telling us that government doesn’t work for the last thirty years, and when they get the chance, they fall all over themselves to prove it. (the proceeding shamelessly stolen from PJ O’Rourke)
*Christopher said,
September 4, 2005 at 12:47 am
As I wrote earlier, this lack of compassion reveals deep wounds in our nations values and character. They’ve been festering for years. The fact that the folk this man chastises are poor and black without taking a step back to look at their circumstances shows us we’ve been operating from the silver-spoon-in-mouth values of the likes of W. Duh! Now we’re just seeing the undeniable concrete results. Sorry for the rant, but damn!
Scott said,
September 4, 2005 at 2:07 am
Blaming Bush or FEMA for the brunt of what went down in New Orleans really shows a lack of understanding on how the US government works. Mr. Brown didn’t do his “fucking” job? It’d probably be easier to do that if rescuers weren’t being shot at by gangs of looters. Protect the refugees at the Convention Center? It’d probably be easier to do that if the idiot known as Ray Nagin had actually told FEMA that he was sending people there. Instead they learned it from watching CNN.
Ohhhh, wait, FEMA should have forced people to evacuate before Katrina hit? Right then all the liberals would be crying about civil rights. Not to mention simple protocol:
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease_print.fema?id=18470
There’s plenty of blame to pass around and be pissed about regarding New Orleans, but instead of mindlessly screaming party tag lines like, “OMG, BUSH IS SO STUPID!” why not actually consider facts like chain of command and protocol and learn who is really to blame?
Erin said,
September 4, 2005 at 2:36 am
As much as I would love to jump in with my own version of partisan blame passing, perhaps the most shameful comments come from those within our faith community–those comments that refer to this tragedy as an act of God because of the immorality of our nation.
I self identify pretty firmly as a “bad Christian,” but when individuals who claim to worship the God that I love (the One who calls him/herself Love) can look at death and devastation and spew hatred and venom–I don’t even even know that I want to be a bad Christian today. I just want to cry.
God of grace, forgive us all.
Scott said,
September 4, 2005 at 2:39 am
Ha, it turns out Bush actually tried to do more before the hurricane hit but was turned down by Gov. Blanco.
Many Evacuated, but Thousands Still Waiting
And on especially interesting thought:
It’s just too bad most people don’t understand how the government works.
heh
Emmanuel said,
September 4, 2005 at 4:56 am
Not so fast, Scott. The Bush administration claims that Governor Blanco hasn’t passed a state of emergency up to now. The following link to the governor’s office clearly shows that Gov. Blanco did do so as early as September 26:
http://gov.louisiana.gov/2005%20%20proclamations/48pro2005-Emergency-HurricaneKatrina.pdf
Who’s this “source” anyway? With such blatant misinformation, who needs Jeff Gannon?
Bad Alice said,
September 4, 2005 at 10:21 am
Emmanuel,
Thanks for pointing out this link. The article (whatever its source) obviously got that wrong. But this declaration of emergency seems different from requesting the federal government to take over evacuation procedures. The language refers to state emergency programs. However, I’m not familiar with the protocol, so I’m sure someone else–maybe Scott–can follow up with more information (thanks, Scott, for the FEMA link).
Streak said,
September 4, 2005 at 10:33 am
Scott’s information is the administration’s own party line. But there are too many other facts that really make that a bunch of crap. Like his gutting FEMA or the cut in the Corp funding by 71 million dollars for levee maintenance. All stuff that happened well before, but during a time when hurricane and emergency people were screaming that this could happen. Before you lecture us on the chain of command, check your facts.
Oh, and here is an interesting little tidbit. Several states had offered their national guard troops to Louisiania–Gov Blanco accepted, but the paper work didn’t go through in Washington until the Thursday after the storm.
My favorite part of this, Scott, are your sources. Cherthoff is now in charge of FEMA–I am sure he is an objective Source. And FEMA themselves? Run by a political hack who was fired from his last job organizing horse shows. But even if he wasn’t a hack–your sources are the two agencies or individuals who have the most to gain by getting conservatives like you to parrot the party line.
Streak said,
September 4, 2005 at 10:44 am
BTW, Scott, (and I apologize for the stridency of my last response–I am partisan, I admit),
I was reading that story you posted in depth, and it strikes me that Bush’s effort to take over the national guard issues in Louisiania happened *this Friday*, not the Friday before the storm. Read it again, but I don’t think they are talking about a week ago.
One more thing, and this is just a huge problem I have with Bush (from the same WAsh POst article, I believe:
Why is this man incapable of taking responsibility for anything? What ever happened to the “buck stops here?” I am not asking him to fall on his sword or pray for forgiveness, but would it kill him to acknowledge that he could have handled this better?
Bad Alice said,
September 4, 2005 at 2:45 pm
Now, have you heard about the fake photo ops? http://landrieu.senate.gov/releases/05/2005903E12.html
Brandon said,
September 4, 2005 at 3:21 pm
Well, I’m home.
Lots to respond to, I don’t know if I can hit all the high points, but I’ll try.
Streak-you can rant all you like over here. I’m particularly fine with ranters who tend to generally support what I’ve written.
Erin-I’m sorry you feel this to be partisan blame passing, but honestly, this post was an opportunity to vent frustration. Now, I think that it’s vitally important, in addition to venting, to actually DO something. Yet, I think it’s important to hold responsible people who should be held responsible.
Scott-perhaps folks would take you a tad more seriously if you weren’t spewing partisan rhetorical mis-information and finding the closest black democrat to tack this whole mess on (i.e. the post on your blog about EVERYTHING being Ray Nagin’s fault.)
Eric W.-I’m not sure how anyone can difinitively say ‘this Katrina response is NOT in any way about race or class.’ I’m inclined to agree that racism or classism isn’t the fundamental cause of the poor response to Katrina. Yet, I don’t think we can write it off as a contributing cause to the overall piss poor response to the people in New Orleans and Mississippi. Obviously the people there have been faced with racism so much that it’s one of their first inclinations to look to that as a cause for the things that befall them. Maybe like some folks should be somewhat more reticent to blame issues of race and class for the ills that befall them, some of us would do well not to immediately write off all the things that folks attribute to issues of race and class?
Thanks all, for the discussion.
Scott said,
September 4, 2005 at 4:25 pm
Haha.. yeah, you guys got me good.
I’m spewing the conservative party line because “I LOVE ME SOME GEORGE BUSH!!!!11″
You kids are nuts. I’m not even a republican or a conservative, but okay. I know it’s partisan of me to believe crazy pro-Bush sources like “a source within the state’s emergency operations center.”
And yeah, I blamed everything on Nagin, BECAUSE HE’S A NEGRO-AMERICAN! It’s not because he promoted lawlessness in HIS city, no no no. It’s because he’s black. Brilliant!
Also, never mind the fact that I said in my blog, “Yes, it’s true that FEMA could have done more,” because really I think that’s irrelevant. Obviously I was blaming everything on Nagin. Did I mention he’s black? In a blackie black way?
It must be nice to live in a world where everything is so simple.
Republicans=bad!
Democrats=good!
Brandon said,
September 4, 2005 at 4:43 pm
Scott,
If you don’t like being accused of spewing partisan rhetoric, my first suggestion would be not spewing it.
Explain to me how Nagin’s been ‘promoting lawlessness in his city.’
Thanks for so clearly dichotomizing the way I and others look at partisanship (i.e. republicans are bad and democrats are good.)
Frankly, your misunderstanding of my and others perspectives and misrepresentation of our perspectives as being purely drawn along party lines, shouldn’t really need comment. Your thoughts are just underwhelming, I suppose.
I shouldn’t really be wasting my breath with this argument. So, I’ll stop. If you feel the need to have the last word, be my guest.
Streak said,
September 4, 2005 at 5:08 pm
Hey Scott, I understand your frustration. Like I said in my post, I know I am partisan. I really meant my questions honestly. Don’t you think that article was about this last friday (Sept 2) and not the friday before the hurricane? And isn’t it reasonable to ask where the defense is coming from? I understand that these agencies are going to be defensive.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around–please don’t misunderstand me. But as someone wrote (I can’t remember) it was guaranteed that the states would be overwhelmed by a storm this big. They just can’t address all the issues. That is why FEMA is so important. And, as you noted yourself, FEMA could have done more. But why was FEMA so ill-prepared? At least partially because Bush gutted it, pulled it under HSA, and staffed it with his buddies. Is that completely partisan to say?
Scott said,
September 4, 2005 at 7:29 pm
Get the last word? You asked me a question. heh
Fine if I’m too inconsequential to address I’ll just talk to Streak I guess.
Why was FEMA so ill-prepared? Primarily because they didn’t know they would have such a mess to deal with. Quite frankly, the resources to deal with this tragedy were already in New Orleans before the hurricane hit, but Nagin and Blanco allowed them to get destroyed or looted due to ill planning. Buses were not brought to higher ground. Gun and pharmaceutical vendors were not secured, allowing looters to become armed men and addicts to steal from children’s hospitals. Food resources were not secured and were horded by a few looters instead of fairly distributed by an organized local government.
These are things that the local government is suppose to do, since they are there. The Federal Government is not there, they have to mobilize, and that takes time. Logistically it’s a nightmare. That’s why the constitution is set up to give local governments the right of command in emergency situations.
What could have Bush done?
He could’ve coordinated the military to back up the relief efforts, encouraged Congress to adjourn to pass a Hurricane relief bill, and let emergency oil reserves be used.
Wait, he did that. So why are you bitching? Because it takes 5 days to do all that across the 3 states hardest hit? What was the Mayor and Governor doing in those 5 days? Not what they were supposed to. In Mississippi and Alabama they did handle the emergency relief efforts in an organized fashion. Only in Louisiana could they not hold out for the Federal backup. That’s because of the local leadership, and the falling apart of the chain of command. The rescue effort was a hodgepodge.
The President should’ve known they couldn’t handle it… but that’s all the blame he actually deserves.
The President is not the King of our land. He has specified duties and is not to overstep local municipalities and doing the Mayor and Governor’s job.
As far as the story, I can see where you’d think it was talking about this past Friday. It’s some what ambiguous. The reason I thought is was last Friday is that it mentions “the evacuation,” making me think it was the initial pre-hurricane evac, not the post refugee evac.
It’s kind of a moot point though, as I’ve already pointed out Nagin and Blanco screwed things up so badly right off the bat that all the Feds could do is clean up their mess. It’s sad it took 5 days to get there, but that’s kind of how it works with a government as large as the US. Like I said, that’s why it’s set up for local governments to handle emergency situations.
There’s certainly plenty to be pissed off about when seven year olds are getting raped to death and people are unable to leave a city for nearly a week due to government incompetence. Believe me, I share your anger.
Nicole said,
September 4, 2005 at 9:21 pm
Whew, I think that there’s a lot of vitirol in here, and that eventually, these are important questions to address.
However, what’s been on my mind recently, is what am I doing right now and in the coming days, weeks, and months to help those who are hurting?
I just feel so helpless, and I worry it’s just my own complacency keeping me from doing something radical to help others.
What can we do, especially those of us claiming to be followers of the Christian faith to help? I’m not wanting to spiritualize, or ignore these important questions..I just feel that these are questions that are better addressed a few weeks removed from the time when so many people are in need and hurting.
What do you guys think?
Streak said,
September 4, 2005 at 9:50 pm
Scott, thanks for your response. I can’t agree with you on your assessment, however. FEMA was gutted under Bush–that is a fact. It was professionalized under Clinton with James Witt. You want the states to respond to something they are ill equipped to handle. That is why FEMA was created and improved. Bush decided to change it and under fund it.
One of the questions I asked initially was about Bush and his willingness or ability to admit errors. Truman took responsibility–even when it wasn’t his personal fault. Bush has taken the opposite approach. I don’t understand that, nor do I understand defending him.
I don’t know what Nagin did or didn’t do. Blanco did everything she was supposed to do. She accepted offers from other National Guard states–the Washington approval didn’t happen until Thursday.
I think we disagree pretty on the fundamentals. FEMA had no real plan for this hurricane despite the warnings from experts. Locals did what they could. I have heard numerous examples where even private entities have offered food and water, only to be turned away by FEMA.
Ultimately, this falls on Bush’s desk. I really wonder when people can’t hold him accountable for anything. He hasn’t been asked to be accountable for Iraq and now Katrina.
Brandon said,
September 4, 2005 at 10:22 pm
With all due respect, Nicole (and I think there’s much respect due) I think there’s room for both action AND carrying on a discussion about the propriety of the hurricane relief debacle.
I think that this particular discussion hasn’t necessarily been the most productive as far as helpfulness or honesty goes, yet I think that it’s a fair discussion to have…with the understanding that regardless of your position you should be FOR the hurting people affected by the storm. So, yes, I’m admitting that this discussion probably shouldn’t be a model for helpful discussion. Some of that is probably my fault. Some is not. Yet, the having of this discussion, I believe, isn’t really the problem, per se.
I haven’t written about those relief efforts and ways to get involved, largely because I haven’t had the opportunity thus far. Yet, I have, like most of you I imagine, been involved in a small way with the relief effort. But, yes, those are vitally important things we should all be involved in.
Streak said,
September 4, 2005 at 10:35 pm
A list of misstatements from the Bush administration.
BTW, Scott, i would like a little more evidence that the Governor and Mayor are the reasons things didn’t work. Do you think that FEMA has been managed well in the last 5 years?
Scott said,
September 4, 2005 at 10:45 pm
I am defending Bush? No, I am defending the office of the presidency. As in it’s NOT the president’s position to act on behalf of the local governments. This wasn’t set up by Bush when he “gutted” FEMA, it was set up 200 years a go by the constitution. I think I’ve stated that a few times now.
You keep saying this falls on Bush, but you’re not really proving that point other than saying he cut funding for FEMA. The problem with that argument is that it wasn’t FEMA’s job to respond initially to the disaster.
What did FEMA do when the planes hit on 9/11? (That was pre-FEMA gutting, no?) They showed up a few days later and helped the resources they had on hand the day of. Pretty much the same way they are handling New Orleans, except NY was ready and trained so nobody said, “Where is the federal response!?!?.”
New Orleans wasn’t prepared.
Whose fault is that?
Scott said,
September 4, 2005 at 11:17 pm
Not to be a jerk, but why?
It doesn’t seem like you’re looking for who is at fault, but rather a reason to blame the man you hate.
At any rate, as Brandon pointed out I laid out in my blog a few things Nagin did not do that cost a lot of people their lives and vital resources. If you read that and still think he’s just peachy, I’ll gladly post some more stuff.
Streak said,
September 4, 2005 at 11:46 pm
So your main argument is a state’s rights argument? Yet after 92, America recognized that we needed a better federal coordination. I don’t accept your assessment, frankly that this all falls on the states. Comparisons with 9-11 are not really as relevant. That attack, especially on NY, was locallized (and incredibly traumatic, no doubt). This hurricane (which came with a warning of several days) wiped out entire states. I see no evidence, and you have given me none, that the states failed.
I am not simply bashing Bush. It is fact that he gutted FEMA and treated it as an entitlement program. It is fact that he gutted the programs that aimed to manage flood control in the area. Those are facts.
Maybe you are right that the states should be allowed to be wiped out and the federal government stand by. I find that assertion indefensible, but maybe you are right. Maybe each local government should be forced to defend and rescue itself. But during the 90s we did it as a coordinated and federal effort, because we recognized that states cannot always manage the toll of a natural disaster.
You have given me nothing except a vague notion of federalism, and the assertion that the local and state governments failed. Blanco did everything she was supposed to do. Bush came through and his people created fake photo-ops–and yet, conservatives give him yet another pass.
Assuming I am overly partisan and that we are not going to agree on this, let me ask one question. Has Bush ever take responsibility for a mistake, and have poeple held him accountable for any?
And in parting, if I am too partisan, you are being to casual about this. This storm has shown the depth of our poverty and the limits of our ability to respond. During the tsunami, they were dropping water and food to survivors two days after the flood. We had warning and are allegedly a superpower. Our poorest were left to die. And our President did very little. Again, if that makes me too partisan, then I plead guilty. Government, and yes, our federal government, can do much more to protect us in just such a situation. Your state’s rights arguments will be interesting during our next terrorist attack, when conservatives turn to that state and say, “hey, you are on your own.”
Streak said,
September 5, 2005 at 12:10 am
Scott, I am annoyed and admittedly partisan, but after my last comment it occurred to me that we are seeing a broader conversation on the role of government here.
You seem to be saying that the Republicans are right to completely scale back the federal government and leave everything up to the states (probably an overstatment) except of course, if there is a state decision that goes against the President’s election!
I think that John Barry’s work on the 1927 flood shows a different sentiment within America. During that devastating flood, (btw, Hoover was able to get supplies to flood victims living on levees–all without the benefit of advanced transportation–quicker than anyone has in this recent disaster) actually after this flood, America recognized that simply leaving the poorest of the poor up to the organization of the states was inadequate.
You mentioned 9-11 and I completely undersatnd the point, but it really was a different issue. It certainly was a horrible tragedy and placed a lot of pressure on NY, but only in a few square miles. There was no need to evacuate the entire city, nor to deal with the destruction of multiple cities and what to do with the survivers of those cities. NY, as opposed to Mississippi and Louisiana, is wealthy and well prepared. As I said above, this hurricane exposed our poverty–grinding poverty.
This conversation presages a much broader conversation–i think, on the role of the govenrment and the responsibility of the citizens to the poorest Americans. Personally, I think leaving the responsibility to the smaller entities (state and local governments) especially during a disaster of this magnitude is ill-advised. And, as we are seeing, it is a national security issue. We have to pull troops out of Bush’s other disaster (sorry, couldn’t resist) to come here. Certainly, given the issues of troop strength in Iraq, that is not a good thing.
I believe that this is exactly the situation where a strong federal presence is required. Not to fix everything, but to provide the overarching organization of resources and services that individual states cannot do.
With all due respect, arguing this as a state’s rights issue–which Bush is doing, though misleadingly so–is hard for me to accept. I mean misleading because the basic assertion that Blanco didn’t declare an emergency is false on its face.
But beyond that. If this isn’t a place for a federal presence, what is?
Scott said,
September 5, 2005 at 1:04 am
Streak only sees what he wants to.
How would that make me right? I said nothing of the sort. It’s not a matter of state rights my boy. It’s a matter of logistics and protocol. The state doesn’t “have the right” to defend itself, it has the responsibility to. Not because the state is some wonderful institution that can’t be tread on by the evil federal government, but because the local officials ARE THERE FIRST.
It wasn’t set up that way by Bush, or Clinton, or even Andrew Jackson (all I’m askin’) It was such because of the constitution. Of the United States. I hate to repost something I already did, but what the hey…
I mean I don’t even know what to say when you say something like this:
It’s not a conservative/liberal issue you goof. It’s a constitution issue.
I suppose I could use that same argument then and turn it around the other way and say I’d hate to be a citizen in a democrat run town when a terrorist attack hits and I need water and protection from looters and the leaders will turn to me and say, “Sorry kid, we have to wait until Uncle Same can mobilize 10,000 troops and can stockpile enough water and figure out a way to get it here. It’s gonna take a couple days, Bubba. You’re on your own till then.”
What the hell?
Allow me to ask you something.
What is the state and local government’s responsibility?
Should the local government provide adequate protection from looting and violence in the days before the Federal government arrives?
Should the local government be prepared with a plan to secure sensitive locations to prevent further damage, like gun dealers and pharmaceutical dealers?
Should the local government protect assets that can aide it’s citizens like food, water, and mass transportation vehicles?
Did the New Orleans government do ANY of these things? Even one?
As a side note, the opposite of partisan thought is not being too casual; it’s thinking for oneself. I don’t see where you’re coming up with me being too casual. I’m pissed off as can be that Nagin allowed gangs of looters to rape children to death in his town. It angers me to no end that murderers and thieves will go unpunished because he allowed a state of anarchy to overtake his leadership.
Doesn’t that get you kinda mad too? Or are you not going to hold him accountable for that because he’s a democrat?
Streak said,
September 5, 2005 at 8:53 am
Sorry, I was trying to be nice. You want to be an ass, be an ass.
Fine. But when the state and local governments are overwhelmed by a huge hurricane (as was forseeable here, then wouldn’t a good federal presence like, say a well organized FEMA with a trained emergency management head (instead of a political hack) be a good idea?
Well, now that you are being condescending. Look, ass, I am not some idiot who doesn’t understand our constitution or even the notion of federalism. I was just lecturing on this last week. If you think the situation as just played out was how the Framers saw it, then perhaps it is you who needs to do some reading. I suggested the book on the Mississippi flood, but perhaps that was too much to ask.
You asked:
Again, I thought perhaps some of us here had been too harsh on you. Maybe I apologize for my partisanship, because you certainly are being the same. I like how you continue to quote Chertoff as if his explanation actually means anything.
Perhaps Nagin didn’t do what he was supposed to do. Perhaps his entire city was wiped out (again, why a federal agency that had been honed to work on such things is nice to have). Perhaps, much like every other conservative, you have made the story about the looting and not the thousands who have died because rescue didn’t get to them–or because the levees were breached. Hell, it also looks like Bush faked his own photo-ops just to try to appear presidential.
Anyway, it is early and I am annoyed. I really wanted a conversation. You just want to be churlish. Fine. I am done here. But this is not a constitutional issue. This is an organizational issue, and Bush screwed us all. But by your assessment, the poorest and most underfunded states and local governments are the ones we should blame. Go to it. Have at it. Because, Brandon is right, you are just repeating the GOP talking points. Might as well push for a tax cut during this and make it complete.
Streak said,
September 5, 2005 at 9:02 am
One more, since Scott is fond of Chertoff, and his brilliant constitutional awareness:
LA Times, if you were wondering.
Scott said,
September 5, 2005 at 12:33 pm
It’s funny to me that you continuously blame me for Bush, as if he’s my guy. As if I voted for him.
In truth, you’re more to blame for Bush than I, since you confess to be partisan rather than free thinking. Liberals like you keep America locked in a two party system that produces goofs like Kerry and Bush as “choices.”
In truth, I think Bush is a terrible president. Just as terrible as his father, and just as terrible as Bill Clinton.
So you’re done with me then? Okay, no problem. I don’t think you were looking for conversation though, I think you were looking to prove your point that George Bush is bad at being president. Something I’d freely admit if it were about most any other topic.
Really, the only difference between you and me here is that I think Nagin and Blanco deserve blame first, and then Bush.
meh
Streak said,
September 5, 2005 at 3:02 pm
Scott, I don’t think I was blaming you for liking Bush. I was frustrated when I tried to approach you with a conversation. You may not believe that, but it is true.
Take from that what you will. I am as frustrated with you are about the political dialogue. I admit my partisanship as a confession, not a dare.
News from Around the World said,
September 5, 2005 at 6:36 pm
okay, i lied, i have one more thing to say
Here’s a tip….
Mike said,
September 6, 2005 at 12:32 pm
Maybe in our hearts we all know the real problem here: Bureaucracy! Check out FEMA’s website for the parameters of the so-called “Presidential Major Disaster Declaration”. If you read down, you will see that everyone has to get permission from everyone else, who have to contact everyone else (by phone, email, pony express?!?) all in a “timely” manner.
My son just arrived at the Louis Armstrong airport to do Triage as part of the 82nd Airborne response. He told me they were put on alert this last Thursday morning (he was out in the field doing medic duty for a Ranger exercise at the time). Normally, the expect Airborne units to be mobile in 18 hours…they did this in 11 hours. Not bad…but just think if the bureacracy had not been in place. They would have been there the second day after the levee broke.
Mike said,
September 6, 2005 at 12:37 pm
Sorry…didn’t leave the FEMA website:
http://www.fema.gov/library/dproc.shtm
Mike